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	<title>Comments for Teachers Fight Back</title>
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	<description>Defend and Support School Teachers of America</description>
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		<title>Comment on TIME  FOR  LIE  DETECTOR TESTS by alkleen</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/21/time-for-lie-detector-tests/#comment-406</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alkleen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 19:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback.com/?p=728#comment-406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why, if you weren&#039;t my brother-in-law, and I didn&#039;t know better, I&#039;d say you were a Molotov Cocktail throwing, Che Guevara loving, leftist labor rabblerouser. You know labor history and you have the same paranoia that I do. We don&#039;t want to go back to the 1890&#039;s. Keep up the fight! Where&#039;s Eugene V. Debs when we need him? Probably still rotting in jail for having opposed entry into World War One.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why, if you weren&#8217;t my brother-in-law, and I didn&#8217;t know better, I&#8217;d say you were a Molotov Cocktail throwing, Che Guevara loving, leftist labor rabblerouser. You know labor history and you have the same paranoia that I do. We don&#8217;t want to go back to the 1890&#8242;s. Keep up the fight! Where&#8217;s Eugene V. Debs when we need him? Probably still rotting in jail for having opposed entry into World War One.</p>
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		<title>Comment on TIME  FOR  LIE  DETECTOR TESTS by alkleen</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/21/time-for-lie-detector-tests/#comment-405</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alkleen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 19:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback.com/?p=728#comment-405</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We have completely different experiences in this area. My pension is $26,000 a year from teaching 22 years of public school. My pension from 17 years in private schools is $2,400 a year. My social security is $3,400 a year. I pay $6,000 in property taxes a year. I have a mortgage. I take no vacations, rarely eat out, and spend little money on entertainment. My teacher&#039;s salary was never enough and I worked a second job for 35 years. My kids owe thousands of dollars in student loans. I guess my personal experiences contribute to some of my attitudes. 
The teachers in your district seem to earn a great deal of money and benefits. There is no doubt some teachers are paid very well and could afford to give the community a break from demands. I&#039;m convinced the lesser paying districts far exceed the number of districts that pay well. There are many teachers making $30,000 a year here in Illinois. 
Salary really isn&#039;t the issue that has teachers up in arms. The pressures of the job have increased ten fold over the last several years. Almost any veteran teacher will tell you the job pressures and responsibilities have them at the breaking point. Every older teacher I talk to can&#039;t wait to get out and retire. 
You seem to know a lot about history and I would assume about the history of the labor struggles in this country. I know those times are over, but it leaves me very suspicious of the motives of people who want to see an end to public sector unions. (I know that&#039;s not you). I would compare my suspicions about forces that would destroy unions to the situation in Israel and possibly Jews throughout the world. I believe the Jewish Defense League has the motto, &quot;never again&quot;. After centuries of persecution, people get a little suspicious and defensive when it comes to those who are critical of them. I think Israel is often equally to blame for the failure to reach peace in the Middle East, but I certainly understand their almost paranoid attitudes towards self defense. Knowing what I do about the past exploitation of workers, I have a similar attitude as,&quot;never again&quot;. I don&#039;t want teachers to have to go back to what it was like during my career, at least when it came to salary and benefits. Maybe I&#039;m a little paranoid. My past experiences have shaped my attitudes as I&#039;m sure your past and current situation has shaped yours. I understand your rationale for feeling like you do. I respect that.
Would you like decaf or regular? LOL]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have completely different experiences in this area. My pension is $26,000 a year from teaching 22 years of public school. My pension from 17 years in private schools is $2,400 a year. My social security is $3,400 a year. I pay $6,000 in property taxes a year. I have a mortgage. I take no vacations, rarely eat out, and spend little money on entertainment. My teacher&#8217;s salary was never enough and I worked a second job for 35 years. My kids owe thousands of dollars in student loans. I guess my personal experiences contribute to some of my attitudes.<br />
The teachers in your district seem to earn a great deal of money and benefits. There is no doubt some teachers are paid very well and could afford to give the community a break from demands. I&#8217;m convinced the lesser paying districts far exceed the number of districts that pay well. There are many teachers making $30,000 a year here in Illinois.<br />
Salary really isn&#8217;t the issue that has teachers up in arms. The pressures of the job have increased ten fold over the last several years. Almost any veteran teacher will tell you the job pressures and responsibilities have them at the breaking point. Every older teacher I talk to can&#8217;t wait to get out and retire.<br />
You seem to know a lot about history and I would assume about the history of the labor struggles in this country. I know those times are over, but it leaves me very suspicious of the motives of people who want to see an end to public sector unions. (I know that&#8217;s not you). I would compare my suspicions about forces that would destroy unions to the situation in Israel and possibly Jews throughout the world. I believe the Jewish Defense League has the motto, &#8220;never again&#8221;. After centuries of persecution, people get a little suspicious and defensive when it comes to those who are critical of them. I think Israel is often equally to blame for the failure to reach peace in the Middle East, but I certainly understand their almost paranoid attitudes towards self defense. Knowing what I do about the past exploitation of workers, I have a similar attitude as,&#8221;never again&#8221;. I don&#8217;t want teachers to have to go back to what it was like during my career, at least when it came to salary and benefits. Maybe I&#8217;m a little paranoid. My past experiences have shaped my attitudes as I&#8217;m sure your past and current situation has shaped yours. I understand your rationale for feeling like you do. I respect that.<br />
Would you like decaf or regular? LOL</p>
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		<title>Comment on TIME  FOR  LIE  DETECTOR TESTS by Paul Lambert</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/21/time-for-lie-detector-tests/#comment-404</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Lambert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback.com/?p=728#comment-404</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course the reason teacher strikes are effective is that they negatively impact the kids. I&#039;m not taking that perspective from some negotiation playbook, as I&#039;ve never directly participated in union negotiations, as either a school board member or as a business executive. It&#039;s just a truthful description of why teacher strikes work for the teachers&#039; union, and it&#039;s the primary reason there have been almost no teacher strikes here in Ohio over the past couple of decades.

The other is that we had a period of economic prosperity in this country that was initiated during the Reagan administration, and collapsed during Bush Jr. I&#039;ll not try to give credit or blame to any of the Presidents of that era - each deserve a little of both.

It may have taken educators a while to get a ride on that gravy train, but you did - and I&#039;m glad for it. But those days are over for a while - who knows how long. And it&#039;s a really scary time for many folks in our economy, including me.

I think there&#039;s some psychological equation that goes something like this:

EMOTION = FACTS x SURPRISE FACTOR

For decades, people thought the truth about the teaching profession was that it isn&#039;t so well paid, but has the great benefit of getting summers off. Their impression of how hard teachers work is based on their experience as a student, and from a student&#039;s perspective, it doesn&#039;t look that hard.

I&#039;m not saying that I believe teachers don&#039;t work hard - I&#039;ve spent about 500 hours in an elementary classroom since becoming a school board member, and I know how hard the work is, both when the kids are there, and after they&#039;ve left for the day. You&#039;ll never catch me saying teachers don&#039;t have a tough job.

But most of the public never sees what I&#039;ve seen, or what you&#039;ve lived. They&#039;re just recalling what it was like to be a student. So let&#039;s agree that most - maybe the great majority of community members grossly underestimate the skill and stamina required to be an effective teacher. And that misunderstanding plays strongly into their &#039;value equation.&#039;

I&#039;d argue that until recently, few members of the public have understood how teachers are compensated, or what role the teachers&#039; union plays in determining how teachers are paid. And frankly, as long as the public felt like they were doing well economically, and their taxes not that noticable, they had little interest in expending the energy necessary to find out how school economics really works.

Then the economy softened, and the stock market tanked. Folks who thought they had a lot of paper wealth in their home equity and 401(k) stock funds saw both evaporate seemingly overnight. Losing one&#039;s job on top of that quickly drove folks to dispair - and anger.

Then along comes the school district with yet another property tax levy. When folks ask why now, when most of us are hurting - they are surprised to learn that the answer is that another levy is needed to fund the pay raises and benefits costs built into the collective bargaining agreement with the teachers (which is how 95% of our new levy money is spent). That&#039;s the first surprise.

Then they start to understand that the pay for teachers isn&#039;t as low as they thought. In fact, it&#039;s pretty good (averaging $70,000/yr in most districts around here) - and there&#039;s still those summers off. And not only that, but they can retire in their late 50s and make $80,000/yr for the remaining 25-30 years of their lives - with pretty decent health coverage.

Big surprise. The raw facts of the situation - the teacher pay grid, step increases, base pay increases, contribution toward health insurance, retirement benefits - are magnified by the surprise factor, and the folks of the community getting pretty pissed off.

So they start balking at passing new levies, and the school board counters by saying that if the levy doesn&#039;t pass, they have to cut programming and services, starting with extracurriculars and transportation. The Board has no choice, they&#039;ll say, because they&#039;re bound by the terms of the CBA, with all its built in increases and benefits.

So the people elect new Board members who promise to be tougher negotiators with the union. They try, but the union leaders say, look - we&#039;re only going so far, and if you push any harder, we&#039;ll go on strike and screw up things big time for your kids. It&#039;s ludicrous to say there is any other point of leverage in a teacher strike. Many, perhaps most folks in a community won&#039;t care if the teachers go on strike because they don&#039;t have kids in school. Sure, it will have some impact on everyone&#039;s property values by scaring off potential buyers for a while, but only if the strike is never settled.

But the parents of school age kids will freak out, especially if it screws up sports or graduation requirements. There will be pressure to capitulate to the union demand, which is what the union leaders are counting on. Meanwhile, the levy still doesn&#039;t pass, leading to layoffs and cancellation of all kinds of programs and services - starting with those most visible and painful. It leads to a kind of civil war in the community, and things are never the same again.

We are right at the point of this doomsday scenario in many school districts. Counterintuitively, it&#039;s the most affluent districts who have the greatest risk, because they&#039;ve been able to avoid this crisis the longest, and consequently have been able to shield the community from the facts. That&#039;s a flawed strategy.

Here in central Ohio, the &#039;ring suburbs&#039; about the urban core are one by one fighting the skirmishes that are the precursor to all out war. Our neighboring district - one of the best in the state - is right now in the process of laying off 100+ young teachers. One on the other side of the city is trying to get a levy passed in March - after having one fail in Nov - and if it fails again, they too will end up laying off 100+ teachers. We were fortunate to pass our levy by literally a handful of votes in November, and so are set for now, but I&#039;m not confident that we can get another one passed in 3 years - the interval we&#039;ve promised to stay off the ballot.

Most public school organizations - Board, Administration and Teachers&#039; Union - just suck at public relations. They try to control information, and that just leads to build up of the SURPRISE FACTOR.  When the truth finally comes out, as it is now, the EMOTIONS run high, and a reasonable resolution is near impossible. Once folks take sides, the war is on.

That&#039;s where we are now I fear.

-------------------
ps - I&#039;d enjoy that cup of coffee and conversation, but I think we&#039;re a few hundred miles apart. I appreciate a reasonable dialog from which I can learn something, and just maybe open the other&#039;s eyes to a perspective they&#039;ve not had before as well. That&#039;s why I&#039;m happy to invest in this conversation. I can tell you that there&#039;s about zero chance of having a dialog like this with the leaders of our teachers&#039; union, who fought actively to defeat me in the last election...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course the reason teacher strikes are effective is that they negatively impact the kids. I&#8217;m not taking that perspective from some negotiation playbook, as I&#8217;ve never directly participated in union negotiations, as either a school board member or as a business executive. It&#8217;s just a truthful description of why teacher strikes work for the teachers&#8217; union, and it&#8217;s the primary reason there have been almost no teacher strikes here in Ohio over the past couple of decades.</p>
<p>The other is that we had a period of economic prosperity in this country that was initiated during the Reagan administration, and collapsed during Bush Jr. I&#8217;ll not try to give credit or blame to any of the Presidents of that era &#8211; each deserve a little of both.</p>
<p>It may have taken educators a while to get a ride on that gravy train, but you did &#8211; and I&#8217;m glad for it. But those days are over for a while &#8211; who knows how long. And it&#8217;s a really scary time for many folks in our economy, including me.</p>
<p>I think there&#8217;s some psychological equation that goes something like this:</p>
<p>EMOTION = FACTS x SURPRISE FACTOR</p>
<p>For decades, people thought the truth about the teaching profession was that it isn&#8217;t so well paid, but has the great benefit of getting summers off. Their impression of how hard teachers work is based on their experience as a student, and from a student&#8217;s perspective, it doesn&#8217;t look that hard.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that I believe teachers don&#8217;t work hard &#8211; I&#8217;ve spent about 500 hours in an elementary classroom since becoming a school board member, and I know how hard the work is, both when the kids are there, and after they&#8217;ve left for the day. You&#8217;ll never catch me saying teachers don&#8217;t have a tough job.</p>
<p>But most of the public never sees what I&#8217;ve seen, or what you&#8217;ve lived. They&#8217;re just recalling what it was like to be a student. So let&#8217;s agree that most &#8211; maybe the great majority of community members grossly underestimate the skill and stamina required to be an effective teacher. And that misunderstanding plays strongly into their &#8216;value equation.&#8217;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d argue that until recently, few members of the public have understood how teachers are compensated, or what role the teachers&#8217; union plays in determining how teachers are paid. And frankly, as long as the public felt like they were doing well economically, and their taxes not that noticable, they had little interest in expending the energy necessary to find out how school economics really works.</p>
<p>Then the economy softened, and the stock market tanked. Folks who thought they had a lot of paper wealth in their home equity and 401(k) stock funds saw both evaporate seemingly overnight. Losing one&#8217;s job on top of that quickly drove folks to dispair &#8211; and anger.</p>
<p>Then along comes the school district with yet another property tax levy. When folks ask why now, when most of us are hurting &#8211; they are surprised to learn that the answer is that another levy is needed to fund the pay raises and benefits costs built into the collective bargaining agreement with the teachers (which is how 95% of our new levy money is spent). That&#8217;s the first surprise.</p>
<p>Then they start to understand that the pay for teachers isn&#8217;t as low as they thought. In fact, it&#8217;s pretty good (averaging $70,000/yr in most districts around here) &#8211; and there&#8217;s still those summers off. And not only that, but they can retire in their late 50s and make $80,000/yr for the remaining 25-30 years of their lives &#8211; with pretty decent health coverage.</p>
<p>Big surprise. The raw facts of the situation &#8211; the teacher pay grid, step increases, base pay increases, contribution toward health insurance, retirement benefits &#8211; are magnified by the surprise factor, and the folks of the community getting pretty pissed off.</p>
<p>So they start balking at passing new levies, and the school board counters by saying that if the levy doesn&#8217;t pass, they have to cut programming and services, starting with extracurriculars and transportation. The Board has no choice, they&#8217;ll say, because they&#8217;re bound by the terms of the CBA, with all its built in increases and benefits.</p>
<p>So the people elect new Board members who promise to be tougher negotiators with the union. They try, but the union leaders say, look &#8211; we&#8217;re only going so far, and if you push any harder, we&#8217;ll go on strike and screw up things big time for your kids. It&#8217;s ludicrous to say there is any other point of leverage in a teacher strike. Many, perhaps most folks in a community won&#8217;t care if the teachers go on strike because they don&#8217;t have kids in school. Sure, it will have some impact on everyone&#8217;s property values by scaring off potential buyers for a while, but only if the strike is never settled.</p>
<p>But the parents of school age kids will freak out, especially if it screws up sports or graduation requirements. There will be pressure to capitulate to the union demand, which is what the union leaders are counting on. Meanwhile, the levy still doesn&#8217;t pass, leading to layoffs and cancellation of all kinds of programs and services &#8211; starting with those most visible and painful. It leads to a kind of civil war in the community, and things are never the same again.</p>
<p>We are right at the point of this doomsday scenario in many school districts. Counterintuitively, it&#8217;s the most affluent districts who have the greatest risk, because they&#8217;ve been able to avoid this crisis the longest, and consequently have been able to shield the community from the facts. That&#8217;s a flawed strategy.</p>
<p>Here in central Ohio, the &#8216;ring suburbs&#8217; about the urban core are one by one fighting the skirmishes that are the precursor to all out war. Our neighboring district &#8211; one of the best in the state &#8211; is right now in the process of laying off 100+ young teachers. One on the other side of the city is trying to get a levy passed in March &#8211; after having one fail in Nov &#8211; and if it fails again, they too will end up laying off 100+ teachers. We were fortunate to pass our levy by literally a handful of votes in November, and so are set for now, but I&#8217;m not confident that we can get another one passed in 3 years &#8211; the interval we&#8217;ve promised to stay off the ballot.</p>
<p>Most public school organizations &#8211; Board, Administration and Teachers&#8217; Union &#8211; just suck at public relations. They try to control information, and that just leads to build up of the SURPRISE FACTOR.  When the truth finally comes out, as it is now, the EMOTIONS run high, and a reasonable resolution is near impossible. Once folks take sides, the war is on.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s where we are now I fear.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
ps &#8211; I&#8217;d enjoy that cup of coffee and conversation, but I think we&#8217;re a few hundred miles apart. I appreciate a reasonable dialog from which I can learn something, and just maybe open the other&#8217;s eyes to a perspective they&#8217;ve not had before as well. That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m happy to invest in this conversation. I can tell you that there&#8217;s about zero chance of having a dialog like this with the leaders of our teachers&#8217; union, who fought actively to defeat me in the last election&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on TIME  FOR  LIE  DETECTOR TESTS by alkleen</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/21/time-for-lie-detector-tests/#comment-403</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alkleen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 04:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback.com/?p=728#comment-403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As the name of this blog implies, I&#039;m here to defend teachers. For my first thirty years of teaching, I never felt the need to &quot;defend&quot; teachers. We were respected and rarely bashed in the public arena. We were rarely attacked by politicians. We were never used as scapegoats for the incompetence of parents and a society that only paid lip service to the notion that education was important. That all changed starting several years ago. 
I just heard Newt Gingrich in tonight&#039;s debate. I believe he said, &quot;teacher unions don&#039;t care about the children, they only care about protecting their teachers.&quot; Things like that were never said ten years ago. Teacher unions are made up of teachers. I NEVER met a teacher who was, &quot;in it for the money.&quot; I never met a teacher that didn&#039;t care about the students. There are certain people in this country who decided to declare war on teachers for whatever reason. We didn&#039;t start this war, but we certainly have a right to defend ourselves. 
I pay outrageous property taxes and I&#039;m not happy about it. Millions of people are not happy about their property taxes. I wish their was another way to pay for schools and teachers. I never went around bragging about how important teachers are in society. I never felt the need to suggest how important teaching was until the last few years. I just can&#039;t stand the hypocrisy of the politicians and reformers who scream about teaching being so important. They say there is NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE EDUCATION OF OUR CHILDREN, and then complain about teacher pensions, salaries, benefits, etc. Which is it? Is teaching extremely important or not? If it is, then stop complaining about wages and benefits etc. I wouldn&#039;t be nearly so upset if they would say, &quot;well, teachers are no more important than any other job.&quot; That&#039;s fine. I could accept that. Then there wouldn&#039;t be any hypocrisy in their demands for lower salaries, benefits and pensions. 
I&#039;m really disappointed to hear you say that the teachers &quot;use the kids as hostages&quot; during negotiations or during a strike. That&#039;s the first time I&#039;ve ever seen you write something that is taken from the standard playbook of administrative negotiation phrases. Usually all your thoughts are original and very sensible. I respect you and your opinions and admire your interest in all of this. I&#039;d like to have coffee with you sometime and we could have some interesting conversations. I don&#039;t take any of this personal and I hope you feel the same. I went through three tough negotiations with school board members and administrators. We disagreed on many issues and took months to resolve our differences. Despite our differences we were always civil towards one another and I never had a problem getting along with the superintendent or the school board president.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As the name of this blog implies, I&#8217;m here to defend teachers. For my first thirty years of teaching, I never felt the need to &#8220;defend&#8221; teachers. We were respected and rarely bashed in the public arena. We were rarely attacked by politicians. We were never used as scapegoats for the incompetence of parents and a society that only paid lip service to the notion that education was important. That all changed starting several years ago.<br />
I just heard Newt Gingrich in tonight&#8217;s debate. I believe he said, &#8220;teacher unions don&#8217;t care about the children, they only care about protecting their teachers.&#8221; Things like that were never said ten years ago. Teacher unions are made up of teachers. I NEVER met a teacher who was, &#8220;in it for the money.&#8221; I never met a teacher that didn&#8217;t care about the students. There are certain people in this country who decided to declare war on teachers for whatever reason. We didn&#8217;t start this war, but we certainly have a right to defend ourselves.<br />
I pay outrageous property taxes and I&#8217;m not happy about it. Millions of people are not happy about their property taxes. I wish their was another way to pay for schools and teachers. I never went around bragging about how important teachers are in society. I never felt the need to suggest how important teaching was until the last few years. I just can&#8217;t stand the hypocrisy of the politicians and reformers who scream about teaching being so important. They say there is NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE EDUCATION OF OUR CHILDREN, and then complain about teacher pensions, salaries, benefits, etc. Which is it? Is teaching extremely important or not? If it is, then stop complaining about wages and benefits etc. I wouldn&#8217;t be nearly so upset if they would say, &#8220;well, teachers are no more important than any other job.&#8221; That&#8217;s fine. I could accept that. Then there wouldn&#8217;t be any hypocrisy in their demands for lower salaries, benefits and pensions.<br />
I&#8217;m really disappointed to hear you say that the teachers &#8220;use the kids as hostages&#8221; during negotiations or during a strike. That&#8217;s the first time I&#8217;ve ever seen you write something that is taken from the standard playbook of administrative negotiation phrases. Usually all your thoughts are original and very sensible. I respect you and your opinions and admire your interest in all of this. I&#8217;d like to have coffee with you sometime and we could have some interesting conversations. I don&#8217;t take any of this personal and I hope you feel the same. I went through three tough negotiations with school board members and administrators. We disagreed on many issues and took months to resolve our differences. Despite our differences we were always civil towards one another and I never had a problem getting along with the superintendent or the school board president.</p>
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		<title>Comment on TIME  FOR  LIE  DETECTOR TESTS by Carl Osterlund</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/21/time-for-lie-detector-tests/#comment-402</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carl Osterlund]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 03:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback.com/?p=728#comment-402</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Write a sentence on the chalk board a thousand times? Hell no!
Send them down to work in coal mines for 15 hours a day with no overtime pay and the only safety equipment would be that the mine owner said he could afford.  That&#039;s what they would get paid also. No workman&#039;s comp for injuries or insurance for death on the job. They could live in company housing, paying rent out of their paycheck. They could shop at the company store for food and necessities, paying the same way.  They would also need to find some way to save for retirement since they would not get Social Security.  The kids could go to work in mines when they turn 8. The kids could see in the mine if they did not burn up the one candle a week they were issued. They could pull the carts of coal to the surface so it could be shipped out. They would have one saving grace, they would not have a union.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Write a sentence on the chalk board a thousand times? Hell no!<br />
Send them down to work in coal mines for 15 hours a day with no overtime pay and the only safety equipment would be that the mine owner said he could afford.  That&#8217;s what they would get paid also. No workman&#8217;s comp for injuries or insurance for death on the job. They could live in company housing, paying rent out of their paycheck. They could shop at the company store for food and necessities, paying the same way.  They would also need to find some way to save for retirement since they would not get Social Security.  The kids could go to work in mines when they turn 8. The kids could see in the mine if they did not burn up the one candle a week they were issued. They could pull the carts of coal to the surface so it could be shipped out. They would have one saving grace, they would not have a union.</p>
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		<title>Comment on TIME  FOR  LIE  DETECTOR TESTS by Paul Lambert</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/21/time-for-lie-detector-tests/#comment-401</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Lambert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback.com/?p=728#comment-401</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And I dream of a day when teachers&#039; unions propose collective bargaining agreements that track the financial well-being of their communities, both up and down. You see, I believe teachers&#039; unions have a place and don&#039;t wish to see them abolished. But I want them to act with more empathy to the other taxpayers.

But more than anything, I want teachers&#039; unions to find a way to communicate and negotiate such that it isn&#039;t the kids who are held hostage. Teacher strikes should not be a club in your bag, and for you to even threaten this as a bargaining tactic neutralizes all your claims that &quot;you&#039;re in it for the kids.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I dream of a day when teachers&#8217; unions propose collective bargaining agreements that track the financial well-being of their communities, both up and down. You see, I believe teachers&#8217; unions have a place and don&#8217;t wish to see them abolished. But I want them to act with more empathy to the other taxpayers.</p>
<p>But more than anything, I want teachers&#8217; unions to find a way to communicate and negotiate such that it isn&#8217;t the kids who are held hostage. Teacher strikes should not be a club in your bag, and for you to even threaten this as a bargaining tactic neutralizes all your claims that &#8220;you&#8217;re in it for the kids.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on DOCTOR  POWER AND  TEACHER DREAMS by Paul Lambert</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/20/doctor-power-and-teacher-dreams/#comment-400</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Lambert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback.com/?p=725#comment-400</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I refuse to answer that question.  Our society has specialized into interdependent skills and professions, and all but a very few of us are dependent on others for survival. It is the height of arrogance to say that teachers are more valuable to society than doctors, and the reverse is true as well. You guys are drinking your own Kool-Aid on this one.

The same is true about your whine about Social Security. We have an interdependent society, and it&#039;s pretty hard to define what is fair. I have no defined benefit pension, and it would be a stretch to say it was even defined contribution, as in even the best years my employer matched only a fraction of what I contributed to my own retirement. Believe me, I contributed all I could so that I could have a shot at surviving retirement.

Now that&#039;s in question. My retirement planning assumed that I should be able to earn 5% interest on safe investments like CDs and municipal bonds. But since so many in our society decided to live well beyond their means on credit cards and second mortgages, our government has chosen to drive interest rates to zero. So while I am still able, I have been forced to return to the workforce to try to slow the consumption of my nest egg.

Oh, and by the way - what has changed the most in my expenses in the last year?  My school property taxes. Paying the rising cost of salaries and benefits for our teachers is causing us to cut our family budget to pretty much the basics, and is forcing us to seriously think about selling our home and moving out of the community where we&#039;ve lived for 30 years.

Meanwhile, our state teachers&#039; pension system is in a ton of trouble because they took a bath in the stock market and the real estate market. They might have been able to ride through that had they not paid out bonus checks when the market was booming (yes, they paid out a &quot;13th paycheck&quot; to retirees for a number of years). The solution first proposed to the retirement system now being significantly underfunded was for the working teachers and the taxpayers to increase their contribution percentage, but the taxpayers have balked at this. We taxpayers made the contribution we agreed to - it was the retirees&#039; choice to make risky investments and skim off the cream.

The teachers who retired in the last 10 years got quite a windfall. They got to finish their careers at a time when pro-labor laws gave them by far the stronger hand at the bargaining table, which was used in our district and many others to drive the terminal pay from $70,000/yr to $90,000/yr. Then the retirement plan had a kicker added so that a teacher with 35 years of service could retire at 88% of the average of their last three year&#039;s salary. That&#039;s not a bad deal - a pension of $80,000/yr for the rest of one&#039;s life after retiring in one&#039;s late 50s.

Teachers need to quit thinking of themselves as victims. Our economy is a living beast, and each profession seems to have its time in the sun. The last 10 or so years have been good for teachers, from an economic perspective. My friends who are nuclear engineers don&#039;t have it so good today, although they did very well in the 70s. I&#039;d hate to be an aerospace engineer these days - their boom years were the 60s. MBAs and lawyers owned the 90s. Both degrees seem like questionable investments now.

I think teachers have to be careful these days. Those &quot;Teachers have the Most Important Job in the World&quot; bumper stickers are starting to get under the skin of folks who have been hurt badly in this recession. And folks are starting to realize that the thing driving the increase in their school taxes are raises for teachers who seem to already be doing pretty well economically when most of the rest of us have high anxiety about our economic futures. 

It doesn&#039;t matter whether or not it was true that teachers got a raw deal in the past. All that matters is the present when it comes to politics and public policy. To continue to play the victim would be a serious political blunder for the teachers&#039; unions.

The Japanese have a proverb: &quot;the nail standing highest is the first to be hammered.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I refuse to answer that question.  Our society has specialized into interdependent skills and professions, and all but a very few of us are dependent on others for survival. It is the height of arrogance to say that teachers are more valuable to society than doctors, and the reverse is true as well. You guys are drinking your own Kool-Aid on this one.</p>
<p>The same is true about your whine about Social Security. We have an interdependent society, and it&#8217;s pretty hard to define what is fair. I have no defined benefit pension, and it would be a stretch to say it was even defined contribution, as in even the best years my employer matched only a fraction of what I contributed to my own retirement. Believe me, I contributed all I could so that I could have a shot at surviving retirement.</p>
<p>Now that&#8217;s in question. My retirement planning assumed that I should be able to earn 5% interest on safe investments like CDs and municipal bonds. But since so many in our society decided to live well beyond their means on credit cards and second mortgages, our government has chosen to drive interest rates to zero. So while I am still able, I have been forced to return to the workforce to try to slow the consumption of my nest egg.</p>
<p>Oh, and by the way &#8211; what has changed the most in my expenses in the last year?  My school property taxes. Paying the rising cost of salaries and benefits for our teachers is causing us to cut our family budget to pretty much the basics, and is forcing us to seriously think about selling our home and moving out of the community where we&#8217;ve lived for 30 years.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, our state teachers&#8217; pension system is in a ton of trouble because they took a bath in the stock market and the real estate market. They might have been able to ride through that had they not paid out bonus checks when the market was booming (yes, they paid out a &#8220;13th paycheck&#8221; to retirees for a number of years). The solution first proposed to the retirement system now being significantly underfunded was for the working teachers and the taxpayers to increase their contribution percentage, but the taxpayers have balked at this. We taxpayers made the contribution we agreed to &#8211; it was the retirees&#8217; choice to make risky investments and skim off the cream.</p>
<p>The teachers who retired in the last 10 years got quite a windfall. They got to finish their careers at a time when pro-labor laws gave them by far the stronger hand at the bargaining table, which was used in our district and many others to drive the terminal pay from $70,000/yr to $90,000/yr. Then the retirement plan had a kicker added so that a teacher with 35 years of service could retire at 88% of the average of their last three year&#8217;s salary. That&#8217;s not a bad deal &#8211; a pension of $80,000/yr for the rest of one&#8217;s life after retiring in one&#8217;s late 50s.</p>
<p>Teachers need to quit thinking of themselves as victims. Our economy is a living beast, and each profession seems to have its time in the sun. The last 10 or so years have been good for teachers, from an economic perspective. My friends who are nuclear engineers don&#8217;t have it so good today, although they did very well in the 70s. I&#8217;d hate to be an aerospace engineer these days &#8211; their boom years were the 60s. MBAs and lawyers owned the 90s. Both degrees seem like questionable investments now.</p>
<p>I think teachers have to be careful these days. Those &#8220;Teachers have the Most Important Job in the World&#8221; bumper stickers are starting to get under the skin of folks who have been hurt badly in this recession. And folks are starting to realize that the thing driving the increase in their school taxes are raises for teachers who seem to already be doing pretty well economically when most of the rest of us have high anxiety about our economic futures. </p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter whether or not it was true that teachers got a raw deal in the past. All that matters is the present when it comes to politics and public policy. To continue to play the victim would be a serious political blunder for the teachers&#8217; unions.</p>
<p>The Japanese have a proverb: &#8220;the nail standing highest is the first to be hammered.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on DOCTOR  POWER AND  TEACHER DREAMS by alkleen</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/20/doctor-power-and-teacher-dreams/#comment-397</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alkleen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 04:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback.com/?p=725#comment-397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I will stand by my main point. Doctor organizations and lobbyists have way more influence over Congress than do teachers. I will give you one shining example. Despite paying into Social Security for more than thirty years, I only receive one-third of the money I should be getting from Social Security. I only get one-third because I receive a state pension as a retired teacher. The &quot;Windfall Pension Act&quot; is the reason for this injustice. The N.E.A has been trying to get Congress to repeal the &quot;Windfall Pension Act&quot; for many years. They have gotten many Congressmen to support the effort, and yet nothing has happened to repeal the Act and nothing ever will. 
My point was not to suggest that teachers DESERVE to have more influence than doctors. It was just to point out that the effectiveness of teacher lobbying is very minimal. You point out how much money teacher lobbyists have given to Congress. To that I would say, &quot;we sure aren&#039;t getting much for all that money.&quot;
While we are on the subject of deserving, let me ask you a question. Whose job do you think is more important, that of a teacher or that of a doctor? Don&#039;t base it on education and cost of education,and work hours etc, but strictly on importance to the community. I believe that a teacher has a more important role in a community than a doctor does. Most people see a doctor maybe once or twice a year. Unless you have some chronic illness, a teacher has way more influence in your life than a doctor. Who has influenced your life more? Doctors or teachers? Not even close for me. Teachers for sure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will stand by my main point. Doctor organizations and lobbyists have way more influence over Congress than do teachers. I will give you one shining example. Despite paying into Social Security for more than thirty years, I only receive one-third of the money I should be getting from Social Security. I only get one-third because I receive a state pension as a retired teacher. The &#8220;Windfall Pension Act&#8221; is the reason for this injustice. The N.E.A has been trying to get Congress to repeal the &#8220;Windfall Pension Act&#8221; for many years. They have gotten many Congressmen to support the effort, and yet nothing has happened to repeal the Act and nothing ever will.<br />
My point was not to suggest that teachers DESERVE to have more influence than doctors. It was just to point out that the effectiveness of teacher lobbying is very minimal. You point out how much money teacher lobbyists have given to Congress. To that I would say, &#8220;we sure aren&#8217;t getting much for all that money.&#8221;<br />
While we are on the subject of deserving, let me ask you a question. Whose job do you think is more important, that of a teacher or that of a doctor? Don&#8217;t base it on education and cost of education,and work hours etc, but strictly on importance to the community. I believe that a teacher has a more important role in a community than a doctor does. Most people see a doctor maybe once or twice a year. Unless you have some chronic illness, a teacher has way more influence in your life than a doctor. Who has influenced your life more? Doctors or teachers? Not even close for me. Teachers for sure.</p>
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		<title>Comment on DOCTOR  POWER AND  TEACHER DREAMS by Paul Lambert</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/20/doctor-power-and-teacher-dreams/#comment-396</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Lambert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback.com/?p=725#comment-396</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Al:

I think you vastly understate the power of the teachers&#039; unions. Check out the &quot;Heavy Hitters&quot; list on OpenSecrets.org, and you&#039;ll see that in the period between 1989 and 2012, the NEA was the sixth largest political contributor in the county, and the AFT was 10th. Put together, their political contributions of $70.7 million during this period were 20% more than the largest group - Act Blue.

In comparison, the American Medical Assoc is 16th on the list, at $28 million - 40% of that spent by NEA+AFT.

Maybe the AMA is just better at lobbying than the NEA/AFT. Maybe the AMA focuses on just a few key things, and accept the rest of the crap dealt to them. You think education is fraught with testing and paperwork, try medicine. Teachers get no where near the professional scrutiny that MDs do. And when was the last time you heard of a teacher being sued for malpractice?

By the way, I have one kid who is a teacher and one who is an MD (in residency). When one compares the cumulative net cash flow between the two (ie amount spend on education vs cumulative earnings), the crossover is at about 37 years of age. MDs tend to do well later in their career - if they&#039;re in the right specialty and practice in the right regions - but it takes them a long time to catch up. I won&#039;t try to compare the relative workload and stress between the two professions, but note that during her residency, my youngest is working 48 weeks/yr, 80-100 hours/wk, and getting paid about the same as a teacher who is the same number of years post getting an undergrad degree.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Al:</p>
<p>I think you vastly understate the power of the teachers&#8217; unions. Check out the &#8220;Heavy Hitters&#8221; list on OpenSecrets.org, and you&#8217;ll see that in the period between 1989 and 2012, the NEA was the sixth largest political contributor in the county, and the AFT was 10th. Put together, their political contributions of $70.7 million during this period were 20% more than the largest group &#8211; Act Blue.</p>
<p>In comparison, the American Medical Assoc is 16th on the list, at $28 million &#8211; 40% of that spent by NEA+AFT.</p>
<p>Maybe the AMA is just better at lobbying than the NEA/AFT. Maybe the AMA focuses on just a few key things, and accept the rest of the crap dealt to them. You think education is fraught with testing and paperwork, try medicine. Teachers get no where near the professional scrutiny that MDs do. And when was the last time you heard of a teacher being sued for malpractice?</p>
<p>By the way, I have one kid who is a teacher and one who is an MD (in residency). When one compares the cumulative net cash flow between the two (ie amount spend on education vs cumulative earnings), the crossover is at about 37 years of age. MDs tend to do well later in their career &#8211; if they&#8217;re in the right specialty and practice in the right regions &#8211; but it takes them a long time to catch up. I won&#8217;t try to compare the relative workload and stress between the two professions, but note that during her residency, my youngest is working 48 weeks/yr, 80-100 hours/wk, and getting paid about the same as a teacher who is the same number of years post getting an undergrad degree.</p>
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		<title>Comment on SCHOOL  UNIFORMS  AND  STRICT DISCIPLINE by alkleen</title>
		<link>http://teachersfightback.com/2012/02/10/school-uniforms-and-strict-discipline/#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alkleen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 18:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://teachersfightback1.wordpress.com/?p=693#comment-382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sorry to hear about your decision. Yes, common sense has been pretty much destroyed. I&#039;m just thankful the majority of my career was at a time when common sense was in abundance. I couldn&#039;t last today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry to hear about your decision. Yes, common sense has been pretty much destroyed. I&#8217;m just thankful the majority of my career was at a time when common sense was in abundance. I couldn&#8217;t last today.</p>
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